Well, geez. Someone's a little cranky, eh?

Come on, David. Sometimes we can use a healthy dose of positive attitude, and do without the Debbie-Downer routine.

I've been living here almost 30 years. I love it too. No city is perfect. Not even the ones romanticized by Hollywood. Just chill and let chill, will you?

Folks, let's not be haters, alright?

Maybe instead, we should be directing Mary to experiences that will enhance and expand her view of Toronto. I hope she knows, for instance, that the cheapest street meat is at Queen and Spadina. Or that the skating is better down at the Harbourfront?

Let the woman revel. Who knows where the poor gal came from?

From what I've seen/heard/experienced, Paige - maybe for the fear-mongering of the mass media, but the way people (especially strangers) treat each other in the city and how self-sufficient everyone is really seems to be a unique case for this city. When I visited New York City, the attitude was very different from Toronto's. Or look at homelessness, for one; there's a problem that seems way more persistent in Toronto than elsewhere.

Also, chris, I was eating a chocolate bar as I wrote this. And my dickishness is Toronto-bred.

Hypothesis:

If you were born in Toronto, you hate Toronto.
If you moved to Toronto, you like Toronto.

I don't know if "formidable years" was a slip or intentional, but I think no matter what decade I'm in, or where I live, I'm always going to think of myself as living out my Formidable Years from this point forward.

Wow, way to stick it to Mary.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being "naive" and loving the city you live in. If that's the case, I must be a small-town naive transplant, too.

Sure, this city definitely has issues, but you can't fault someone for trying to find the good in it. I don't know who you're interacting with, but I've had mostly positive experiences with strangers in this city...they're helpful, nice, smile at you for no reason (oh my!), hold the door open for you, etc. You're always going to get the few people who are too busy to open their eyes and look around, but for the most part, Torontonians are good people.

Good to know that she's actually taking the time to explore the city, which is more than I can say for some native Torontonians I know, who don't even bother travelling north of Bloor or haven't been to the suburbs. I always find this very shocking.

David, I hope you wake up on the right side of the bed tomorrow morning and relax a bit. ;)

my formidable years are long past ... i'm now in my carlsberg years, soon to give way to my gin years ... then probably my bukowski years as i swear out random passages from tom waits songs in bars ...

whcih reminds: the tom waits appreciation congregation are playing tonight at the silver dollar. as winner's say: "you should go!"

My other .5 and I moved here in July from NYC. And let me tell you, it's a breath of fresh air, figuratively if not always literally. I realise you've found things to complain about regarding your transportation system, if the majority of your life has been spent with the TTC (vacations don't count). However, having spent many years living in NYC and before that LA, the subway here's a friggin' joy by comparison. Service is regular. I cannot count the # of late nights in NYC after one too many drinks trying to get home and waiting an hour or more - yes an hour - for train to get me back to Brooklyn when a cab refuses to take you. And while you might not want to eat off the station or train floors here, there's no arguing that the system here is positively sterile by comparison.

And the friendliness isn't to be underestimated either. Sure there are nice folks in NYC who might help you as a tourist, but G-d forbid you live there. It changes everything. Residents are rude to each other on a routine basis. I'm still counting the ways with each new interaction in Toronto, that people are so...nice! The latest being my contact with the Police Service for an employment-required background check. It was almost surreal how nice they were. I'd have been lucky to get a grunt back home.

Perhaps it's that old grass is greener thing but so far, for the last almost three months, Toronto's been winning my heart with each day that dawns.

oh, not to say that we aren't the best. we are. there's even a cd compilation to assert that as well. but enthusiasm about it, without a significant self-reflexive deprecation, just isn't canadian or torontonian. seriously, we were built up by calvinist scots and successive waves of capitalists from all over the world. social conservatism in regards to national/local/municipal pride is character.

and mary likes a small part of toronto, defined by roncesvalles - the don, st. clair - the lake. there's huge parts of toronto that are always left out of these glowing testaments to this city. a full acknowledgement of what makes us so great needs to take scarborough into account, and the confusion that is north york and etobicoke.

Rek is bang on. Go spend a weekend in Gravenhurst(not at some cottage outside of G-hurt, but in the town proper) and come back and tell me how much Toronto sucks. You'll kiss the first streetcar you see, I gay-ron-tee.

I should clarify that I'm not saying that Toronto sucks, at all. I love Toronto - I'd have to to work on a site like this and to live here (happily) my whole life. I was just trying to poke some holes in her argument, because this kind of gushiness is definitively un-Torontonian. I thought. It was supposed to be a kind of a joke, an overly-enthusiastic angry response to her unbridled enthusiasm. There are some things I definitely disagree with - we're not all nice.

And now you guys are being all sweet and I feel bad - I thought we Torontonians were all supposed to be jaded?

When I moved here 30 years ago I felt as Mary does. 30 years later, I still do. I'm with you Mary, I LOVE this town!

Wow. Yeah, definitely only Torontonians would bash and nitpick over somebody whole-heartedly loving their city, then turn out and bitch about how everyone hates us.

Congratulations, Torontoist. Through all the years, I couldn't fathom why people hated Toronto. You have FINALLY demonstrated to me why. Kudos.

Interesting perspective you've got on the city; it really is true that familiarity breeds contempt.

I've got more to say in my blog.

Hey Joey,

I've copied my response to your blog here.

Let me start by saying, Joey, that I don't have any contempt for Accordion City, I do genuinely love it - which is why I almost never leave it. I was trying to make fun of the gushiness of the Craigslist writer and to disprove some of her arguments in favour of the city.

Just to address a few of your points, though (I'll copy these onto the thread on Torontoist, as well):

- When I went to New York (yes, only once), I walked around a lot of the city - Harlem, the Bronx, Coney Island, etc. My hotel was on the upper west side and I didn't want to be confined to only knowing that area of New York.
- I don't mean to say that homelessness isn't a problem elsewhere, and please, please don't interpret my comments as meaning that I don't care about it. One of the things that does bug me about this city is that there's so much apathy towards homelessness when it's a real problem that some of us have just gotten used to it. Thus my 'Nathan Phillips Square' comment addressing hers. Obviously, I'm not saying Toronto's poverty problem is worse than Africa's or something like that; that'd be ridiculous and ignorant on my part.
- The entirety of my closing paragraph is meant to show how Torontonians can stand out against the "giant dehumanizing city" that I'm talking about. ("The true greatness in our city isn't midnight skating at Nathan Phillips Square or our music scenes or spotting hot cheese employees - it's making a genuine connection with real live people in a setting (a metropolis) that is not at all conducive to it. An anonymous posting on the internet proclaiming love for a giant dehumanizing city is just way too easy. There's more to discover? Go for it.") It'd be hard to argue, I think, that any large city isn't dehumanizing in some capacity, at least compared to a village or a town or what have you.

When I posted the article, I genuinely expected a "har har" response from a bunch of born and bred Torontonians (I even employed some of that famed "hipster irony and sarcasm" in the article); instead I was met with a bunch of really surprised and half-outraged people. As I wrote in the comments, I thought we were all jaded and bitter. Or maybe it's just me?

David Topping
Torontoist

Hey, David! I've got a response to your response (plus bonus proposition!) here.

If you hate Toronto, try living in Los Angeles for nine months.

On the other hand, if you love Toronto, coming back to it after visiting New York will make you FEEL like you live in Gravenhurst.

HAHA touche, Tara.

So David, could Mary's TORONTORGASM!!!! for a city she just moved to.. be simillar to the way you've sugar-coated NYC attitudes after only one visit?

Wow, I'm reading these comments for the first time and I'm shocked by the degree of ire raised. However, it really brings a tear to the eye...can it be we actually do love the Big Smoke after all? *Sniff!*

I've been to many cities around the world, and I have to say: the more I travel, the more I love Toronto. And the parts I dislike, I absolutely detest -- and there's nothing I hate more than our missed potential despite knowing exactly how to improve.

As for Mary Sunshine, at least she find the "bums" (her word) at the red lights "warm and kind." She also uses enough exclamation points to make Yahoo! jealous. We love you too, Mary Sunshine! Though I'm not too sure about those cab drivers driving your drunk ass home.

I love Toronto, I also love David (as only one editor can love another). But at least we can all agree on one thing, the Gardiner sucks and needs to go.

trying to rip a gawker-style deconstruction . . . half the words twice the humour

Disgusting ...

You have a Toronto hater in charge of the Torontoist.

Fiercely proud cities a like New York and Montreal would never let an idiot like him helm a site that is supposed to show that city in the best light.

That's why Toronto is not as great as it could be - have have Toronto haters in charge of its media, tv and sites like this one. Hire more immigrants who are happy to live in this city and watch the city's image grow and prosper.

These pampered whiners like David who by way of his info doesn't travel much should get the boot and please hire more energetic and passionate people. Montreal and New York hire passionate as journalists, people who have a love and can write about the city to bring it alive ... not dead beats like david who slags his own great city.

Oh how trendy you pampered little ingrate. Give outsiders more of a chance to run things in Toronto. Some people born there are dead beats it seems.

I'm Montreal born but LOVE Toronto. Get rid of the trendy cynical crowd who constantly bash Toronto.
You're letting down a super city, you priviledged idiots.

You come off as spoiled brats when you constantly complain all the time and I don't want to hear it.

You don't read Montreal writers doing that and you don't read New York writers reading that. You're promoting a Toronto Lifestyle site here you idiots not an in depth investigative piece.

All self hating Toronto writers please give your jobs to people who will do it justice and with passion. Your "ironic, cool kid" stance is so deadening and boring. There are many foreigners reading this magazine (maybe not after this) who may not be oh so hip as you Toronto hipsters are trying to be.

I wonder if your sponsers appreciate this oh so cool alienating technique and Toronto glibness?

Yeah verbally slap some poor girl Mary in the face because she appreciates Toronto.

No wonder Montreal's city reputation is very good. With Toronto friends like David who needs enemies.

hahaha Montreal is laughing its ass off at the nerds in Toronto. Hey here's a new topic for you David write about how sad and pathetic the Toronto Film Festival is and what a drag to have to go through it every year.

Maybe you ough to travel more and see how other people live. maybe you have it too good in Toronto.
The Torontoist is about cool stuff happening in Toronto - do you f***ing job man.

Holy bejeesus. Who'd have thought that one little caffeine-and-sunshine induced post would stir up so much trouble? The rave was written as a reaction to all the negativity that one habitually encounters on Craigslist. It was a hurriedly written, unedited sort of thing, meant to nudge the masses to try and see the good things that exist around them. I'm a bit embarassed by it, actually, it's not that well written. But I am flattered that (some) people liked it.

But alright, I'll bite. First, kudos to Mr. Topping for correctly identifying me as an Albertan! Yeehaw, y'all. (Yes we have martinis at home. We just pay less for them.) Farmhand, I'm certainly not, but thanks for the props on the grammar (the 3 M's in the post title notwithstanding. See above re: no editing). Whether I'm lovable or not is pretty contentious, but thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

Actually, I call myself an Albertan, but I was born in Hong Kong, spent my early childhood there, and have returned a few times since I've moved here. I've lived in Los Angeles, spent some time in Boston, and have visited Vancouver, Ottawa, New York, and Orlando, albeit rather briefly. I've also been to London, Edinburgh, Paris, Milan, Florence, Venice, Bern, Shanghai, Beijing, and many other smaller cities and towns in North America and beyond. I don't consider myself an expert on these places by any means, but experiencing them has been broadening. At any rate, perhaps that will help answer David's questions about my origins.

I could go point by point through David's analysis of my post, but that just seems like splitting hairs at this point. The point of the post was not to say that all these things about Toronto are *better* than their counterparts in other cities, or that Toronto always has it right. Rather, it was my attempt to get people to see that there IS good in the city, and that perspective is important.

Of course Toronto is fraught with its problems -- what major city isn't? And of course my enthusiasm over late-night skating at Nathan Phillips isn't going to help the homelessness situation. (Although as an aside, having grown up seeing the homeless in Hong Kong might have desensitised me a bit.) But I can look at one side and smile, or look at the other and cry, and I'd rather smile. Yes this is naive... selfish, even. But at least I'm happier this way, and snarl less at people. I'm not advocating blinders here, but what's so horrible about trying to see the good with the bad?

David speaks of Toronto as dehumanizing, and although it might not be apparent, I am in full agreement with that claim. It certainly can be bleak out there. But therein lies the choice: I can sit back and sob to myself that "wah wah, no one in the big bad city loves me" and adopt an attitude of me-against-the-world, or I can try to bring a sense of openess and warmth to my interactions, and try to achieve that elusive connection to which David refers. And the best way that I know how to do that is to laugh at the absurdity of frat houses & their denizens, community naming debates, and distracted customer service, all the while attempting (if at all possible) to enjoy the good that comes with these things. (Frat boys, for example, can be great fun to party with. And once they're finished growing up, some even turn into decent men! Zounds.)

Sure, I've had negative experiences with the "grumpy angry Torontonians" (most of whom post things on the internet, actually. I've met very few in person), and I'm sure I'll continue to. I can't control how they act, but I can try to remind myself that those people ARE "warm and kind in at least some way". I don't always succeed in convincing myself of this, but I try. "Fashionista", "Hipster", "Geek"... these are all just labels. I use them too, and they are not without meaning. But underneath... don't you "cynical" hipsters secretly grin when you sing in the shower or in the car or whatever? Does the "shallow" fashionista not experience hurt and heartache when she fights with her man, or loses a friend? Is her pain somehow worth less than yours or mine?

Look, I have it pretty easy. I'm educated, I come from a good family, and I've been given every opportunity in life. I've had some bad stuff happen to me too, but I generally lead a charmed existence. I forget that way too often, and get caught up in all the little troubles that we all have. I'm sure I sound like a hyperactive cheerleader with a handful of pixie sticks in my post, and I have no business trying to speak for those who have much more serious struggles in their lives. I guess I'm just trying to suggest that it might be better for our collective blood pressures if we eased off the negativity a bit.

Ack... I'm getting too much in a tizzy over this. David is using my post as a springboard to comment on the state of Toronto as he sees it, and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, it's attacking my post, but what can one expect, posting something so exuberant on teh intarweb. At least David does it intelligently. But it's all kind of moot anyway... all you commenters have proven to me that which I already knew -- good people (and good things) are out there. We just have to look.

Thanks again to David for sparking a thoughtful (and literate!) debate, and thanks especially to those who defended my post. You don't know me, and I don't know you, but it means quite a bit to me. Nice to know I'm not alone out here!

Sloppy hugs and kisses,
~Mary Fucking Sunshine.

PS: There is no excusing, however, my horrendous oversight in listing "Sushi" as a cultural category. To the lovely Japanese, my apologies. I just love your cuisine (and sushi/sashimi in particular) so damn much that I got overexcited.

PPS: Goddammit, there were not nearly enough exclaimation marks in this comment essay. LOL! ZOMG!! OMGWTFBBQ!!! LOLLERSKATES!!11!!! There. That's better.

Mary... keep being optimistic. Why the hell shouldn't you be optimistic?

I grew up in Scarborough and hated living in Toronto. I moved to Ottawa for several years and slowly fell in love with Ottawa. When I returned to Toronto in my mid20s I acquired a taste for Toronto. Eventually, I fell in love with Toronto.

I have travelled the world and the more I travelled, the more I grew to appreciate Toronto (warts and all!).

I now live in Singapore (I've been here for close to three months) and am missing Toronto.